Healing Discussion Podcast #12

It’s been a while!  But here we are again, starting to ramp up thoughts for 6.2: both reviewing where we’ve gotten on some topics like Spirit and trinkets, and anticipating what the most important issues might be for potential class changes.


Topic List:
0:00 Intro
1:53 Spirit Growth in 6.2
> 2:35 Mana Economy and Spirit Acceleration in 6.1-6.2 (my recent post)
> 6:15 Mana inflation in previous expansions
> 8:20 Flattening the Spirit growth curve
> 14:45 Adjusting to a lower Spirit playstyle (Current 6.2 trinkets)
> 30:00 Design Principles: Constraining player ability to promote engaging choices
35:15 Raid comp balance for healers
> 35:40 Where we were at the end of MoP
> 37:55 The guaranteed Disc Priest raid spot
> 40:26 Interlude on using HPS meters to evaluate class balance
> 48:10 The guaranteed Holy Paladin raid spot
> 49:05 Interlude on Raid CDs, their role in healer balance, and Avenging Wrath
> 53:52 WoD Beacon : tank healing :: MoP smart heals : tank healing
> 56:28 Holy Light’s efficiency, and Holy Power’s diminished role
> 66:56 The tank healing “niche” & the value of Clarity of Will
> 69:15 Dayani’s rant about Resto Shaman perception
73:40 The TL;DR: Mana failed to matter, and this skews class balance
76:30 Outro

All episodes

10 thoughts on “Healing Discussion Podcast #12

  1. Great (though somewhat lengthy) summary of the healing meta for Warlords so far!
    I think I agree in pretty much every point, but there is one thing that I strongly disagree on: Disc not having a strong cooldown. With how much Tranq and other healing cds have mattered, I was interested in how much damage my PW:B actually prevents… for some fights, a well placed PW:B can mitigate more than a million damage quite easily. That still doesn’t quite match up with other cds obviously, but it is definitely not insignificant.

    And the point Dayani made about IM/BH with CoW: IM and BH p2 were probably by far the most fun I’ve had as a disc priest in like 2 expansions (which goes to say quite a bit about class design)!

    • I think the mention of cooldowns was with respect to meters, and the argument in question was that Disc often will top meters even though they do not have a cooldown that appears on the meters. If the damage reduction from PW:B was visible clearly, they would lead effective throughput by an even larger margin. That said, there are some other effect that are not visible for similar reasons, such as tank cds or SLT that have a definite direct numerical impact, but do not appear on the meters that could be factored in to determine true numerical contribution. It seems fairly likely that those effects (of which Discs do have one) would contribute less than a well-used PW:B. I wonder how better attribution of damage mitigation as effective healing would effect the perception of class balance.

      • I did make that point about meters, but I think I said somewhere else that Disc doesn’t have a typical huge cooldown (I mentioned Paladin too and then we decided that probably wasn’t right).

        • Ahh I do recall that now. I do think it’s fair to delineate a few tiers of CDs in that way, with the flat raid-wide one in Tier 1 (Tranq/Revival/HTT/Hymn), and the more limited ones in Tier 2. SLT and PWB are location depenent; ToL, Wings, and Asc require the player to continue to heal as normal so are not raid-wide generally.

          I actually think it’s really interesting to think about what it really means to have a balances healing game. I think the idea of representation might be the best measure, but it really is measuring some (maybe multidimensional) space of numerical comparisons that should exist in some form. Also, representation gives a skewed view of balance by exaggerating relatively small differences (Shamans and p1 BH), or underrepresenting in-class spec competition (Holy priests/Druids on BH p2).

          tl;dr I need to find a guildy to talk to about these things so I don’t write essays as blog replies.

  2. Pingback: 6.2 Mini-Analysis: RIPtide (Resto Shaman t18 Set Bonuses & Archimonde Trinket) | healiocentric

  3. I found the chat about Paladins and Priests and the fact that they have an almost guaranteed spot in the raid interesting. At the end of your discussion you basically say that the mana matters rule doesnt apply as strongly to priest and paladin, and thats what is guaranteeing them these spots. Before this you go into the fact that they have niche rolls (more specifically paladin, but I believe the shield can be considered as a niche role for priests). I feel like this point was maybe closer to the point.

    Sure they have less mana issues, but in my mind, when deciding the comp of a raid, the raid leader is thinking, we need tank healing, and we need raid healing, we need raid cooldowns, we need externals, and having shields would be great. (Correct me if Im wrong on this). I don’t want to get into each point, but basically it seems like the paladin and priest have cornered the market in their niches, as you guys mentioned.

    The reason why I bring this up is because you guys mention that we are hoping for some class balance changes in 6.2 to address this somewhat. Seems to me that the paladin issue cant really be solved by some balance changes. The one point you mentioned is that its more complicated, because its a mix of different spells strengths causing them to be really good at tank healing. But one could look at this issue as a clash of design choices in the game. We like niche roles in classes, and we also like comp balance. The 3 points you guys raised are in competition:

    1. Paladins are specialised tank healers
    2. We like niche roles (so we wouldnt want to remove paladins from this niche)
    3. Every encounter has tank healing

    Seems to me, we would either need to change the niche that paladins have from tank healing to something else, we need to change the structure of encounters somewhat to reduce the reliance on tank healing, or we need to remove the niche from paladins and make them better at raid healing and not as good at tank healing.

    I realise this is an oversimplification of the issue (and an exaggeration, saying that the problem is so bad that these are our only recourses). We like to have a healthy balance between niche roles so that everyone is uniquely useful, but at the same time not guaranteeing spots for certain people. The problem here is that the niche for paladins is useful in every fight.

    It just seems to me anything they could do in 6.2 would be a bad fix for the issue. I cant imagine nerfing them will really change the raid comp without changing their roles. What would we nerf? We could nerf their other utilities like sac and devo, meaning that their spot would be less guaranteed, but is that the right thing to do? That would just make them great at only tank healing and not much else I guess.

    The point of this long winded post was just to ask, what would you like to see for paladins in 6.2. Can we preserve their niche feeling while removing their indispensable nature? Maybe this is a topic for a blog post rather than a comment reply.

    Anyway thanks for the podcast as always.

    • Another potential solution to the paladin niche problem would be to slot one of the less ‘nichey’ classes into that area. Druid are potentially a good candidate with Lifebloom for the steady (and essentially passive) throughput that Beacons bring (maybe what they’re testing with the set bonuses?). Shaman could also be strengthened in that area by adjusting or spicing up Earth Shield. Monks and Holy Priests don’t already have a rotational tank-focused ability that I know of (never really touched holy priest) that could be adapted into a niche ability.

    • It’s hard to pinpoint any one thing as the source of imbalance, but I think it’s interesting to note that the healers who have the fewest mana concerns also happen to be the two that we think are guaranteed raid spots and that are dominating Mythic raid healing right now.

      It’s not a direct link, probably, between Paladin mana and their dominance in raid – and as other commentors here mentioned, there’s a utility issue as well that cropped up in particular Mythic fights – but I do think it’s one influence. If Holy Light were not so efficient (with double beacon transference it’s pretty insane), then Paladins couldn’t reasonably be expected to keep tanks alive alone, and other healers would have to pick up the tank-healing slack. Letting other healers encroach upon the tank healing style would necessarily reduce Paladins’ stranglehold on the role.

      I also agree that improving their AoE healing QoL would help – if they were more focused on raid healing, they’d be less of an indispensable tank-healing machine.

      I agree with Twitchys that Druids are also being pushed toward a tank-healing role by their set bonuses – in fact, a lot of the set bonuses or trinkets do seem to be aimed at tank-healing mechanics (well, maybe not Holy Priests’ set bonuses, although their trinket is) – but remember that the HPal set bonus is more Beacon transference and their Archimonde trinket strengthens Holy Light. I don’t think we’ll see a significant shift in role for Paladins in 6.2.

  4. I know fair amount of my healing issues are my teams comp, being me as a monk, another monk, a druid, a disc priest and on the fights where we 5 heal another disc priest. We are slowly moving through mythic, only 4/10. However, I don’t have a fight where I am over 15% mana by the end. Next tier with the new trinkets we will have a fair bit less spirit, or large amount if you grab a class trinket. Combine with the loss of tier bonuses, there will be fewer spell casts available. I don’t know of a fight where if I cast fewer spells people don’t just die. With the next tier damage will go up, mostly to challenge tanks, but across the board damage will go up, and I will have less healing I can do. Unless there is enough crit and multistrike to make up for a fair reduction in spellcasts. Now I will concede that my comp is wonky, and monk healing, especially when strong tank healing is needed, is a bit strange. This really has me concerned for my raid teams ability to succeed, and my ability to stay a monk and not gear my pally to not feel like I’m holding my team back.

    • I must say I’m not too worried about the trinkets. They seem to be really strong this tier. You could use

      Intuition’s Gift:
      +376 Intellect
      +376 Spirit
      Classes: Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Monk, Druid
      Use: Increases Critical Strike by 3028 (20.81% @ L100) for 15 sec. (1 Min, 30 Sec Cooldown)


      “Flickering Felspark:
      +383 Intellect
      +383 Haste (4.26% @ L100)
      +383 Mastery (3.48 @ L100)
      +383 Spirit

      Unstable Felshadow Emulsion:
      +525 Spirit
      Equip: Your heals grant the target Leech for 10 sec, equal to (52 / 100)% of the effective healing done.

      Which both seem to be serious chunks of stats (the leech one seems overpowered iirc)

      If I were you I wouldnt count my chickens until you guys get into hfc and give the gear a try. You might be casting less heals but they will be alot stronger I believe

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